Entre los comentarios a este artículo del que hablé en un post anterior, he encontrado interesantes conclusiones. Los medios extranjeros suelen tener una interesante zona de comentarios. Cuando se relacionan con españa, parte de los mamporreros y trolls que habitan la web de la prensa española desaparecen, y hay a veces un intercambio de ideas interesante. Pongo aquí, acogiéndome al derecho de cita, alguna de las más inquietantes. Es curioso como el concepto de negación está presente en alguno de esos posts, sobre todo en españoles que parecen empeñados en defender el orgullo nacional a toda costa, sin entender demasiado bien de lo que están hablando y lo que están defendiendo. De este tipo sólo pondré uno, que son muy cansinos. El primero. El resto, ya entran en el debate central del futuro de España, el Euro, etc.
Estos posts fueron publicados entre el 11 y el 12 de mayo de 2013.
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Homer Z Deadmau5
LOL I don't know why everytime those britons want to say stupid things and fake things to Spain.
Like the other one in the BBC, why you hate Spain? LMFAO this story is a big fake, SPAIN ISN'T INSOLVENT!! hahah because if the 12th economy of the world (Spain) was insolvent, all the E.U. is gonna be to break :)
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coldcall
Spain is going to be farked royally by its own corrupt politicians in cahoots with their paymasters in Brussels and Berlin.
This is the sad truth, and instead of Spanish folks getting mad about that they rather live in denial.
So the outlook for Spain is...well more depression and more denial.
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coldcall
One of Spains big flaws is the tendency to deny reality until its too late and dealing with the problem costs a whole lot more than it would have had they dealt with it earlier.
A good example is property prices. You still have lots of folks trying to sell their property here for 2008 prices. So they ask so much no one even makes an offer, and then when they finally give up and sell they lose far more than they could have had they dropped to a realistic price when they first tried selling.
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coldcall
the difference is while the UK banking sector is fucked, the UK can print to absorb losses. Its not ideal and devalues the pound but its a method for dealing with the debt.
Spain has no such option, beholden to her real bosses who reside in Brussels and Berlin.
this is what you pro-euro loonies can never either understand or admit. So stupidity or denial are your only excuses Ramoncito.
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coldcall
One of the next problem banks in Spain will be NOvaCaixaGalicia. They have already gone through an 8billion euro bailout, and now it is highly probably there will be a big haircut on bondholders and perhaps depositors above 100k.
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Merrik
The Spanish tax man has just finished frightening foreign residents into declaring any beneficial interests they may have in assets outside Spain. Including trusts which are a legal vacuum.
Having done that there are no rules as to how these should be treated, and the annual returns are due by the end of June.
I just wonder if Mr Warner's predictions are already accepted deep down in the Madrid dungeons? Are they wondering how they can get their hands on assets outside Spain?
tomaso
Wrong. It applies only to foreigners who have Spanish tax residency. In other words they would be, quite rightly, taxed the same as Spanish residents. The exempt level for husband/wife is abt. €1.75mill, which would cover most expats that I know. And after that the tax levels are pretty low and would only greatly affect the super rich.
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homo_sapiens
The EU have their fingers crossed praying that Spain will give up its sovereignty before everything falls apart.
blondesailor
Correct, the crisis is being used to speed up integration. The crisis was always inevitable, and its use as a force for 'good' equally so. But we were never asked or told, and that's why it won't wash. It'll blow up eventually because even political union is no solution to the fundamental issue of differences in in competitiveness. The only 'solution' is abandonment. It'll come, equally inevitably, but only when the problem suddenly grows so big that Brussels cannot control it in spite of its tenacity.
coldcall
good point. Yes in Spain the political elite which is more or less just the PP and PSOE, are clearly willing to offer up whats left of Spanish sovereignty for a massive bailout.
Once you deconstruct all the bullshit, this is what it boils down to, just follow the money.
What really shocks me is how most Spanish appear willing to allow these corrupt politicians sell their country down the toilet.
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scala_caeli
we pro Euro understand full well what the Euro entails. Its people like you that don't understand. Euro countries with low debt are doing fine in the Eurozone. Country's with excessive borrowing are not doing fine in the Eurozone.
Yes the Eurozone is having problems but guess what .. its still maintained its value. Its still a largely stable currency and its still the currency of 17 country’s.
Compare this to the UK who are struggling every quarter to not go into recession and that on the back of an ever devalued currency. With a country that has the highest % of debt in Europe. So please don't criticize the Euro and the eurozone whilst the UK is in an even bigger mess .
coldcall
here we go, the old straw-man about it the euro strengthening against dollar, pound etc...
This fallacy you keep bleeping about really demonstrates you dont know what you are talking about.
Are you reading some eu endorsed propaganda script or something?
The ONLY reason the euro has strengthened is because there is currently a currency war going on....to devalue, the Japanese have now joined in. Did you not see what the Yanks said (ironically) about the Japanese devaluation?
The losers of this currency devaluation war is the southern eurozone.
You need another argument because this one about the strength of the euro is just dumb, redundant and displays a poor understanding of the current crisis.
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voicalia
The point is not that the UK or USA don't have problems like construction bubbles....you fail to mention that the construction industry and all the cement, tile, brick manufacturers etc that lived off it accounted for 30% of the economy compared to much lesser levels in diversified economies like Germany, France, UK etc.
At its peak the Spanish construction industry was building more houses than the UK, Germany and France put together.
All fuelled on credit....
That has collapsed.
I just don't think "current structural changes" like lowering interest rates to 0.5% are going to save you..continuing austerity will ultimately provoke disorder. The young and regional separatists will eventually create political instability before any growth appears.
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tiberius_gracchus
Spain was insolvent along with most other Euro countries since 2008, we have only just noticed because the elephant in the room is causing such a terrible miasma. The real trouble will start when said elephant lands its (for want of a better word) turd on our collective heads.
lekker12
and since 2008 they did nothing.
Worse, they knew they were in trouble but made it worse.
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callaghanmurphy
Unfortunately the Spanish banks have already been bailed out by the Spanish government.
As the report makes clear, once this action has been stripped out of the figures, Spain still has a structural deficit in excess of 6% and no means of tackling it.
More widely, your "moral hazard" argument holds, but with Spain there is a spending crisis above and beyond their banking crisis.
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callaghanmurphy
Mr Warner is merely pointing out that the Emperor is not wearing any clothes.
No investment bank or shorting is involved in this. That's just 5 year old eurozone cant designed to create both a scapegoat and a diversion.
The International Monetary Fund is not an investment bank.
The bond markets don't short, they sell.
Spain is running an annual structural deficit in excess of 6%. This means that Spain's national debt will double in ten years. Spain's national debt is already far too high. Spain will either have to default, restructure (which is the same thing), or ask for a bailout (which is the same thing).
People forget what a young democracy Spain is and the devastating backwardness of the Franco years. One thing that should have been learnt from that era is that a collusive silence will not end your country's problems. Facing up to them will.
Good luck.
Aaron Rodilla Parres
The bond markets don't short, they sell.. Who said that?
I said investment banks took short positions....in the bond market..:If you need to learn more about you can check this http://bonds.about.com/od/bond...
The International Monetary Fund is not an investment bank....Who said this?
My God, what a crap answer. I wont continue..could be here all day long...This kind of answers underscore why articles like this are SOOOOOOOOO dangerous...
callaghanmurphy
Ooooo! Temper, temper!
Anyone shorting in the bond market is merely certain that the bond price will go down. How they've come to that conclusion about Spain is anybody's guess of course!
You see, when you overspend by 6% a year, year after year, you're just in the power of the bond markets. And if banks or individuals want to profit from your government's profligacy, then they are free to do so.
Perhaps, your solution would be that age old social democratic canard "banning short selling". They'd then just sell direct.
It's not shorting that's the problem, or investment banks. It's Spain's spending.
By the way, I love how you decry "speculators" in that high-handed Euro way of yours! Remember: it's speculators who buy your bonds.
I think your manifesto is:
1. Journalists should keep quiet about Spain's budget deficit
2. No-one should be allowed to trade or speculate in Spanish debt in any way other than that sanctioned by the Spanish government
3. The Spanish economy is fine. It just needs a period of grace to lick it's wounds and recover.
That about it?!!
The International Monetary Fund isn't an investment bank. We're both agreed on that. And it's report says that Spain is running a deficit for years to come of over 6% p.a. That's after the bailouts and that's the structural deficit.
Sorry if you don't like that. Neither does the bond market.
And...best of luck!
blondesailor
There are only two real options for the EU to deal with differences in competitiveness. First, abandoning the Euro and going back to floating currencies. Second, a full 'transfer union', which means all debt becomes collective, European, with Euro bonds. Brussels is pushing for the latter, and main obstacle is the German voters, who this scheme needs to be sold to.
A transfer union in practice means a permanent flow of money heads from north to south. Apart from the resentment this brings due to power differences between creditor and debtor, there's the problem that this scheme slows down the economies of both north and south. Begins to sound like a chapter in American history...
William Henwood
Time Spain bit the bullet lest it has generations of people out of work and no chance for work
Families need the right to a job and the ability to have a life, this is being taken away by the obsession with the Euro.
Corruption is endemic in Spain and must be addressed by the government however the government can not fight on 2 fronts so leaving the euro must be their only priority.
blondesailor
There is this book called 'Beyond Freedom and Dignity', which reminds me of the Brussels right now, they are 'Beyond Honesty and Democracy'. Why? Because since the Cyprus confiscations they can no longer communicate honestly about any country in trouble - any truthful account, if it is bad news, will spark a bank run.
They have now positioned themselves in a spot from where frankness is no longer an option.
I am afraid that this not an opinion, but an unfortunate fact.
This does, indeed, remind of Soviet times.
King
It will get wore before it will get better. The only way out for Spain, Italy & France is to get out of Euro & print out massive amount of their new currencies.
coldcall
They would come out of depression almost immediately as foreign companies and property buyers would be trying to beat the queue. There would be a rush for Spain like no-one has seen.
daviddenton
The problem is many Eurozone economies are insolvent and the approach taken by the ECB is not helping. When Jeroen Dijsselbloem, announced that "If the bank can't do it(recapitalise itself) , then we'll talk to the shareholders and the bondholders, we'll ask them to contribute in recapitalising the bank, and if necessary the uninsured deposit holders." This might be text book economics but it the best way to ensure the Eurozone crisis never goes away.
joan0120
I'm spanish. I left Spain last year and came to the UK. I left just a few hundreds of euros there. I think exactly as Mr Warner. But I think the writer is based on economical figures, while I'm more based on the knowledge of spanish people. I first read this news in a spanish website. It's full of comments, basically attacks and not a single logical argument to prove the opposite, that's the spanish attitude: kill who says there is something wrong... enjoy your sun and misery, you proud people.
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blondesailor
There are only two real options for the EU to deal with differences in competitiveness. First, abandoning the Euro and going back to floating currencies. Second, a full 'transfer union', which means all debt becomes collective, European, with Euro bonds. Brussels is pushing for the latter, and main obstacle is the German voters, who this scheme needs to be sold to.
A transfer union in practice means a permanent flow of money heads from north to south. Apart from the resentment this brings due to power differences between creditor and debtor, there's the problem that this scheme slows down the economies of both north and south. Begins to sound like a chapter in American history...
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William Henwood
Time Spain bit the bullet lest it has generations of people out of work and no chance for work
Families need the right to a job and the ability to have a life, this is being taken away by the obsession with the Euro.
Corruption is endemic in Spain and must be addressed by the government however the government can not fight on 2 fronts so leaving the euro must be their only priority.
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blondesailor
There is this book called 'Beyond Freedom and Dignity', which reminds me of the Brussels right now, they are 'Beyond Honesty and Democracy'. Why? Because since the Cyprus confiscations they can no longer communicate honestly about any country in trouble - any truthful account, if it is bad news, will spark a bank run.
They have now positioned themselves in a spot from where frankness is no longer an option.
I am afraid that this not an opinion, but an unfortunate fact.
This does, indeed, remind of Soviet times.
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King
It will get wore before it will get better. The only way out for Spain, Italy & France is to get out of Euro & print out massive amount of their new currencies.
coldcall
They would come out of depression almost immediately as foreign companies and property buyers would be trying to beat the queue. There would be a rush for Spain like no-one has seen.
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daviddenton
The problem is many Eurozone economies are insolvent and the approach taken by the ECB is not helping. When Jeroen Dijsselbloem, announced that "If the bank can't do it(recapitalise itself) , then we'll talk to the shareholders and the bondholders, we'll ask them to contribute in recapitalising the bank, and if necessary the uninsured deposit holders." This might be text book economics but it the best way to ensure the Eurozone crisis never goes away.
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joan0120
I'm spanish. I left Spain last year and came to the UK. I left just a few hundreds of euros there. I think exactly as Mr Warner. But I think the writer is based on economical figures, while I'm more based on the knowledge of spanish people. I first read this news in a spanish website. It's full of comments, basically attacks and not a single logical argument to prove the opposite, that's the spanish attitude: kill who says there is something wrong... enjoy your sun and misery, you proud people.
La ilustración la encontré en Wikimedia Commons. "The Discussion", ca 1900, por Harry Wilson Watrous. Fue subida por El Dibujante 2.0. Está en dominio público.
